Curse

Bryant Again · Oct 30, 2007, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

Simple, it's the amount of effort needed. In the end, isn't effort what this thread is all about?

When Magellan set out to achieve the Terran Grandmaster Circumnavigator title, all he had was a rusty sextant and compass that always pointed northish. Would we still celebrate Magellan Day on April 27 if he just looked up his route on Google Earth?

If Columbus discovered America using modern satnav, would it be nearly as impressive?

The OP is saying how this makes the game so much more easier since we have these modded maps, when it's actually been like this since cartography titles were first invented. The amount of effort this reduces is soooo minimal that it's nearly laughable. I just no longer have to switch between windows and holding with my fingertips certain points on the map so I can compare.

Karyuu · Oct 30, 2007, 04:08 AM // 04:08

@Esan: You're insinuating that other people should find your achievements impressive, through your comparison with Magellan and Columbus

I don't care about impressing other people, just like I don't care about wasting dozens of hours meticulously comparing screenshots in Photoshop. Why do you?

Zeek Aran · Oct 30, 2007, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karyuu

I don't care about impressing other people, just like I don't care about wasting dozens of hours meticulously comparing screenshots in Photoshop. Why do you?

Personal goals. They should stay personal.

JDStrider · Oct 30, 2007, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

When Magellan set out to achieve the Terran Grandmaster Circumnavigator title, all he had was a rusty sextant and compass that always pointed northish. Would we still celebrate Magellan Day on April 27 if he just looked up his route on Google Earth?

If Columbus discovered America using modern satnav, would it be nearly as impressive?

Wow...that quote has to be the funniest thing I've heard in a while. It is a completely faulty comparison... all Magellan used was a rusty sextant and compass because it was the only resources available at the time. The same applies here--what's wrong with using the mod to help find unmapped areas? Its just another resource you can use, the same as flipping between a photoshopped map and the in game map. You still have to put forth the effort to go to the areas and make sure you completely map what you need. I don't see what is wrong with taking full advantage of all the resources available to you.

Esan · Oct 30, 2007, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Quote:

I don't care about impressing other people, just like I don't care about wasting dozens of hours meticulously comparing screenshots in Photoshop. Why do you?

I don't. And I don't have GMC and never will. I don't wuv walls that much, really.

I'm simply pointing out that there is a difference between layer differencing in Gimp and using a carto-made-easy mod. It's all well and good to say that the difference is minimal, but X Joe Sixpack X does not want to learn how to use Gimp. Or whatever.

Bryant Again · Oct 30, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

I will say that I'd be pretty damned impressed if someone was able to get their title without once looking at their map. But I've yet to hear someone insane enough to do so.

Not only that, they wouldn't be able to prove it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

I'm simply pointing out that there is a difference between layer differencing in Gimp and using a carto-made-easy mod. It's all well and good to say that the difference is minimal, but X Joe Sixpack X does not want to learn how to use Gimp. Or whatever.

Of course there is a difference. Now, is it very minimal? Yes.

And you don't even need to learn how to use Gimp, you just need the image file.

Jeremy Untouchable · Oct 30, 2007, 04:49 AM // 04:49

QQ more...good god folks, you are just pissed b/c someone did there title a easyer way....Who cares. it dosnt have any affect on how you play. this reminds me of the "OMG they are killing the rares" Your E-peen is smaller because someone else did something the easyer way. "but i bowled a strike with my eyed closed" "why cant everyone bowl with there eyes closed" "those guys with both eyes open got a strike in only 8 trys" "it took me 56 trys" "wah" "ban them from the bowling alley"

/rant off

Lady Lozza · Oct 30, 2007, 04:58 AM // 04:58

I don't think it is feasible to say that alt-tabbing to check someone elses map or a photoshopped comparison, and using the mod is completely different. The difference is alt-tab and nothing more.

Every time you reference a map, search for a location of a boss, look at armour on the wiki or any other resource available you are taking advantage of someone else's achievements. This information came from somewhere didn't it?

Players are constantly looking for new ways to make tasks easier - it's human nature. But taking advantage of someone else's experience is rarely called "cheating". If we had to learn to do everything ourselves from scratch all the time society wouldn't move forward.
For games we develop fan sites with information for less experienced players - we lend each other a hand because we don't see the sense in everyone having to do it the hard way if we don't have to. Yet these sites offer EXACTLY THE SAME information as the mod. The difference as I've said before is only alt-tab.

Does it (the mod) cheapen the title? To me, no, I can get the same service outside of the game and apparently that isn't considered cheating. Regardless of what resource you use, mapping requires a lot of killing and a lot of edge walking and can at times be tedious. Having a mod does not change this.

Here's some food for thought: the more people achieving the title of LC the better. Why? It gives us for time in UW and FoW, and I certainly wouldn't consider that a bad thing.

I like Mercenary's idea, it would save a LOT of frustration, but I do wonder how difficult it would be to implement.

jezz · Oct 30, 2007, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karyuu

To who? I don't care if you got Legendary Cartographer. I also don't care if you got God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals. I care if I get those titles, and you should care if you get those titles. But don't try to make me care about what you did or didn't do, and how much effort you did or did not put into something.

nicely said and agreed

CHunterX · Oct 30, 2007, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

...I did the Cartographer titles because I enjoyed being an explorer...

Thread over. You had fun. Some people don't having fun grinding map edges over and over. The people who use the mods still had to grind along the edges to get Grandmaster, still had to get into Jade Quarry by waiting for 16 people, wait for the Boardwalk, and research glitches like Eredon Terrace. But if you honestly think that doing any of these titles means you are skilled, you are sadly mistaken.

Lady Ana Stacia · Oct 30, 2007, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Honestly after having used the mod for the last .3% I needed in Elona vs Comparing the maps from Cantha and Tyria in photoshop there really isn't a difference. It is the same thing. Biggest difference your not spending the time straining your eyes constantly. Same with using the map checkers here on the forums, it just saves time not having to wait on someone else to check your maps.

Does it make the title easier heck no, you still have to do all the work for it.

holababe · Oct 30, 2007, 06:53 AM // 06:53

You can get GMC this easily now

I'm off to download the .tpf and explore Cantha!

Mad King Corn · Oct 30, 2007, 06:59 AM // 06:59

In my opinion, attempting to get the cartography titles without the mod is not only insane, but it's the biggest time waste in the game. The fog makes it impossible to tell where you need to go, and the idea of spending months grinding and scraping is nuts. Even with the mod, you still have to scrape, and scrape alot, and the mod is not 100% perfect either, it's just a visual aid. With the mod I went from 92% to 100% in several weeks. It takes time to enter mission areas, especially high end areas and scrape every square inch of every wall using the mod, in fact, there were several areas where I had to go into several explorable areas just to find out the right place to get a tiny piece of the map. Some areas, I had to go back and forth many times just to land on that one single pixel to get a piece. This is something that even with the cartography mod takes a whole lot of time and patience. If someone said that they did it in one day with the cartography mod, I would have to say they are telling a lie and trying to start trouble. The last 5% of the titles are a bitch to map even with the mod. To those of you that did get the cartography title without the mod, my hat goes off to you, you are either an elite game god or a very lucky person with an awefull lot of time to waste.

Iuris · Oct 30, 2007, 08:22 AM // 08:22

I disagree with the OP's idea, even if it does have Gaile's backing. To illustrate why:

"I got two rank 5 EotN allegiance titles the hard way, before the handbooks were upgraded (and posted the armor details on the wiki - early). I DEMAND the handbooks be restored to their earlier way of functioning because now everyone can effortlessly get to those same title ranks, and it devalues my Monk's Monument armor and the Paragon's Norn armor."

The logic is obvious, but is not automatically valid.

The texmod only allows the player to see where the missing areas are. The player must still DO all he needs to get the title - must still fight their way to the missing bits, must still patrol around a bit, must still have "unlocked" the areas by completing the storyline.

Another point is that the game itself already includes a system that performs the same function - the world map itself. Texmod only enhances the world map's existing function. As said before - the same results can be achieved by comparing the map with a clear map using a suitable 3rd party utility.

In the end: texmod does not eliminate necessary effort - it only eliminates unnecessary effort. I see it as a legitimate tool.

Abnaxus · Oct 30, 2007, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

REAL Cartographers amongst us will know what this entails ... day after day going through each mission and explorable area, slowing scraping every inch of every wall. Waiting for the boardwalk to open to get 0.5%. Researching glitches like Eredon Terrace. Partying with someone that has 'Mayhem in the Market' to get into Vizunah Local. Organising 16 people to get into Jade Quarry together. Reading Livingston's cartography guide and picking off the points one by one, in some zones.

Well, the two things you mentioned can be considered "cheats" to some extent.

You didn't get the title only with your skill, you needed an external aid, provided by information gathered on a website.

Basically everyone does this. I have Legendary GMC with my ranger and I got it comparing fully explored maps.
I've never installed texmod (the only idea of a possible ban or some malicious code that could steal my pw is more than enough to discourage me from using any 3rd party sw), but I don't see ANY difference between comparing maps and using simplified textures.
Both systems tell you what you miss and where you need to go.

The GMC title is very badly designed, the fog system is crap, Cantha is the worst because you need some PvP areas which require 16 human players to enter, and I can understand that players have designed a tool that helps players to overcome such evident flaws.

About your friends teasing you and your proposal to remove their title ... LOL how old are you?
If you're below 12, it's understandable that you whine to your A.net mommy, if you're older ...

ryanryanryan0310 · Oct 30, 2007, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy untouchable

QQ more...good god folks, you are just pissed b/c someone did there title a easyer way....Who cares. it dosnt have any affect on how you play. this reminds me of the "OMG they are killing the rares" Your E-peen is smaller because someone else did something the easyer way. "but i bowled a strike with my eyed closed" "why cant everyone bowl with there eyes closed" "those guys with both eyes open got a strike in only 8 trys" "it took me 56 trys" "wah" "ban them from the bowling alley"

/rant off

What he said!/signed

Also alot cartographers have been getting help with the map overlap technique. This way just save's you from minimizing the game window.

QQ less.

bhavv · Oct 30, 2007, 09:31 AM // 09:31

I used texmod after I were stuck on 98%.

I dont think its cheating, the last few percent is hard enough. I'm sure that people that got legendary carto without using mods should understand that.

Mineria · Oct 30, 2007, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Take another point of view.
Play a game like it is intended to be from the creators of the game.

What I think about mods. Since GW does not have any official mod support I just don't use them, and I like it.
This caused by WoW's modding scene.
There is a huge difference in doing instances without a wiki and all the mods compared to using a wiki and mods.

And the only one you might be cheating, might be yourself.
But neither me or others are the ones to judge that.

Respect to those though, who got this title without any outside help.

zwei2stein · Oct 30, 2007, 09:53 AM // 09:53

I find it mindboogling when people say theese words in gaming forum and mean them seriously:

* (you hafta) Work (for something imaginary)
* Achievent (which is totally pointless)
* Pride (in playing game)

ops argument is funny, first he does it wrong (4 weeks of cartoing cantha? even if he walhugged area a day, it would have been faster ...). he admitedly uses exploits like eredons and he actually thinks that titles have value. moreso, he considers entering outposts based on glitch and entering pvp match work.

as author of the first (now obsoleted by better ones) cartho mod, i say:

/point
/ha-ha

Saraphim · Oct 30, 2007, 09:56 AM // 09:56

I'd love to know the percentage of people using photoshop to compare maps (apparantly not frowned upon by anyone) who actually own a legitimate copy of said software.

I can't quite believe the amount of fuss this has generated, or that it warrants 'looking at' when it is not a game breaking issue, nor does it benefit anyone in any way other than e-peen wagging. While there's people advertising "running A Time For Heroes 2k NM 4K HM" in the Central Transfer Chamber along with all the other 'short cuts via paid services' , this seems pretty insignificant to me.

Hey tell ya what, how's about we insist that the Drunkard and Sweet Tooth titles should only be attainable by drops you pick up, and any items you buy from other players explode in the trade window? No? Thought not.